“Ukraine is a transitional democracy, caught between the logic of war and the logic of integration!”
The people of Ukraine are heading into their fourth winter of war – a winter that, for many, is increasingly becoming a fight for survival. A peace plan drafted by the United States – and most recently also on the initiative of the Europeans – offers a glimmer of hope, but a swift agreement that reflects the interests of all sides still seems unlikely. At the same time, continued Russian attacks on civilian infrastructure are causing the humanitarian situation in parts of eastern Ukraine to deteriorate further each day.
Sven Lilienström, founder of the Faces of Democracy initiative, spoke via Zoom with Ukrainian human rights activist and Nobel Peace Prize laureate Oleksandra Matviichuk (42) about the humanitarian crisis in eastern Ukraine, the red lines in peace negotiations, and whether a world led predominantly by women would be a better one.
Oleksandra Matviichuk, Founder of the Center for Civil Liberties and Nobel Peace Prize Laureate 2022 | © Oleksandra Matviichuk
Ms. Matviichuk, democracy is facing a crisis of credibility and trust. How would you personally speak up for democracy? And what do democracy and democratic values mean to you?
Oleksandra Matviichuk: Let me explain this with something concrete, because when we speak about values, it is very difficult to talk about abstract things.
Twelve years ago, millions of people in Ukraine raised their voices against the corrupt and authoritarian Russian-backed government. They demonstrated peacefully for the chance to build a country with a European future. In response, the authoritarian government launched large-scale and systematic persecutions.
It was tough. At that time, I was the coordinator of the civil initiative Euromaidan SOS. Every day we provided support to hundreds of people throughout the country who had been beaten, arrested, tortured, or charged with fabricated criminal cases.
When journalists or sociologists asked these people why and for what they were fighting, they used the language of values to explain it.
When journalists or sociologists asked these people why and for what they were fighting, they used the language of values to explain it. Ordinary people have no detailed knowledge of how the European Union functions, what the mandate of the European Parliament is, or what the role of the Council of Ministers is. But they used the language of values to say: we are peacefully fighting for a chance to build a country where everyone’s rights are protected, where the government is accountable, the judiciary is independent, and the police do not beat students who are peacefully demonstrating.
And since you are asking for my personal opinion: for me, freedom means taking responsibility for my own actions and decisions!
And since you are asking for my personal opinion: for me, freedom means taking responsibility for my own actions and decisions. This responsibility cannot be transferred to the government, to the church, or to anyone else. It remains mine. And this means that we are always free to make the right choice.
On that note – given this crisis of credibility and trust – how can we restore public confidence in democracy and push back against the widening global confrontation between democratic and autocratic systems?
Oleksandra Matviichuk: We, not only Ukrainians but also people in other countries, must fulfil this responsibility. It is not enough to feel responsible; we must also act to change the situation for the better. And we are not only facing a crisis of credibility and trust. This crisis has several layers, and one of them is that the entire system of peace and security has collapsed.
We now live in a time when our security and our human rights guarantees depend not on international law but on whether people in a given country are able, if necessary, to take up arms and defend their families, their country, and their democracy against an external aggressor. This is the reality we are in. And once again, Russia started a large-scale war not because it wanted to occupy just another piece of Ukrainian land.
Please, don’t be naive. It is impossible to realistically believe that Russia launched a full-scale war to seize tiny Ukrainian cities that most Russians cannot even find on the map.
Some people may still think they are fighting for places like Avdiivka or Bakhmut. But please, don’t be naive. It is impossible to realistically believe that Russia launched a full-scale war to seize tiny Ukrainian cities that most Russians cannot even find on the map. This is a different kind of war.
Russia sees Ukraine as a bridge to other European countries. And Putin’s logic is not transactional; it is historical!
Russia has lost hundreds of thousands of soldiers because it wants to occupy and destroy the whole of Ukraine and move further. Russia sees Ukraine as a bridge to other European countries. And Putin’s logic is not transactional; it is historical.
He dreams of his legacy. He wants to forcibly restore the Russian Empire. And that means that people in other European countries are safe only because Ukrainians continue to fight and do not allow the Russian army to advance further.
So first and foremost, responsibility lies with us and cannot be transferred to politicians.
Ukraine has been an EU membership candidate since 2022. How confident are you that your country can meet the accession criteria in the medium term? And what would EU membership mean for ordinary Ukrainians?
Oleksandra Matviichuk: All countries of the European Union know that democratic transition takes time. Some countries spent decades building sustainable democratic institutions. Some even had the luxury of doing so over centuries. But it is never easy, even in peaceful times. And Ukraine is not living in peaceful times. Ukraine is living through a full-scale war.
We received the chance to build sustainable democratic institutions only after the Revolution of Dignity, when the authoritarian regime collapsed. And again, this chance was not granted to us, we paid for it. We lost hundreds of peaceful demonstrators who were shot in the center of Kyiv by the pro-Russian authoritarian regime.
We are trying to carry out reforms under unbearable circumstances. We are trying hard, and we are certainly not perfect. We are a nation in transition.
I mention this context because sometimes, when we hear criticism from people who inherited their democracy from their grandparents, it feels unfair. We are trying to carry out reforms under unbearable circumstances. We are trying hard, and we are certainly not perfect. We are a nation in transition.
But we are sincere in our fight for freedom and in our intention to meet the criteria. One example: you know that recently there was a major corruption scandal in Ukraine. This scandal came to light not only because the state’s official anti-corruption bodies worked effectively.
Twelve years ago, such a thing would have been unimaginable. First, because these anti-corruption bodies did not exist, they were created only after the Revolution of Dignity. And second, because top-level officials seemed untouchable.
Now, state anti-corruption bodies uncovered the scheme, stopped it, issued arrest warrants, and we now have court hearings. This is huge progress for Ukraine!
But now, state anti-corruption bodies uncovered the scheme, stopped it, issued arrest warrants, and we now have court hearings. This is huge progress for Ukraine.
Compared with just twelve years ago. Another important point: this progress was possible only because, this summer, ordinary Ukrainians took to the streets after Parliament adopted a law limiting the independence of anti-corruption bodies. There was a large peaceful protest where people said: “We are not satisfied with this. It does not align with our European future. You must return to Parliament, vote again, and restore the original provisions.” And we succeeded.
It sounds like a miracle. We are under constant bombardment, every day Russian rockets and drones attack our cities, and yet people still care.
It sounds like a miracle. We are under constant bombardment, every day Russian rockets and drones attack our cities, and yet people still care. People went into the streets, organised mass protests, and pushed the authorities to correct their mistake.
Ukraine is a transitional democracy, caught between the logic of war and the logic of integration. But we are moving forward, and we are on the right way.
So once again, we must assess the situation realistically. Ukraine is a transitional democracy, caught between the logic of war and the logic of integration. But we are moving forward, and we are on the right way.
Right now – at the initiative of the USA – intensive talks are underway concerning ending the Russia-Ukraine conflict. How confident are you that the war will soon end, and which outcomes do you consider red lines?
Oleksandra Matviichuk: I think any peace agreement must answer at least two questions. First: will this peace agreement actually stop the war? Because without that, it is not a peace agreement, it is just a piece of paper. And second: what is the place of the human dimension in this peace agreement? What will happen to people, simply put?
When we look at the previous 28-point plan, there was no answer to how the war would be stopped.
When we look at the previous 28-point plan, there was no answer to how the war would be stopped.
These 28 points followed a logic of weakening the victim of aggression and strengthening the aggressor!
These 28 points followed a logic of weakening the victim of aggression and strengthening the aggressor. Only the Ukrainian army would have had to accept asymmetric restrictions. But it was not the Ukrainian army that invaded another country, it was the Russian army. Yet in that draft plan, the Russian army remained untouchable. Russia would even retain occupied territories.
Moreover, Russia would receive additional territory, an area the size of Luxembourg, which it had failed to capture militarily in four years of full-scale war. This would reward the aggressor with a bonus, helping Putin gain territory without a single shot, winning diplomatically what he was losing militarily. And simultaneously, sanctions on Russia would be lifted, giving Russia the opportunity to rearm.
There were no security guarantees in this plan. But we need peace, not a pause that allows Russia to retreat, regroup, and attack us again.
This is not the logic of peace. It is the logic of a new escalation and new acts of aggression. It is obvious.
There were no security guarantees in this plan. But we need peace, not a pause that allows Russia to retreat, regroup, and attack us again. Security guarantees are vital for Ukrainians, particularly because Ukraine gave up the world’s third-largest nuclear arsenal in exchange for guarantees under the Budapest Memorandum. We have learned that lesson.
So once again: we need something concrete, not just a piece of paper!
In a recent dpa interview, you warned that Ukraine will cease to exist if it stops fighting. In this context you also described the conflict as a “genocidal war.” Could you explain exactly what you mean by that?
Oleksandra Matviichuk: This war has a genocidal character. Putin openly says there is no Ukrainian nation, no Ukrainian language, no Ukrainian culture. For twelve years, we have documented how this rhetoric is translated into horrific practices in the occupied territories: Russians physically exterminate active members of local communities, mayors, journalists, children, writers, teachers, environmentalists, priests, musicians. They ban Ukrainian language and culture. They destroy and loot Ukrainian cultural heritage. They forcibly recruit Ukrainian men into the Russian army. And when they take Ukrainian children to Russia, they place them in re-education camps.
So to be clear: we have no other choice. If we stop resisting and Russia occupies all of Ukraine, we will cease to exist!
There they tell them: “You are not Ukrainian, you are Russian children. Your parents abandoned you. You will be adopted by Russian families who will raise you as Russians.”
So to be clear: we have no other choice. If we stop resisting and Russia occupies all of Ukraine, we will cease to exist.
Because this war is genocidal in nature. And the previous 28-point plan did not include even a single word about people living under occupation.
Because this war is genocidal in nature. And this is why it is so shocking that the previous 28-point plan did not include even a single word about people living under occupation. These are not empty territories; millions of people live there. Why are we not even trying to provide them with some security? They live in a grey zone without any means to defend their rights, their freedoms, their property, their children, their lives, and their loved ones.
We must bring the human dimension back into this conversation. It is not just about Russia’s geopolitical interests, it’s about real people!
We must bring the human dimension back into this conversation. It is not just about Russia’s geopolitical interests, it’s about real people.
With attacks on civilian infrastructure continuing and a fourth wartime winter approaching, how severe is the humanitarian situation in frontline areas of eastern Ukraine? Who is bearing the heaviest burden?
Oleksandra Matviichuk: The problem is not limited to Eastern Ukraine. Russia has destroyed the vast majority of Ukraine’s energy infrastructure.
People in Western regions are also facing this winter without heating, electricity, water, or light. Millions of Ukrainians have been forced into survival mode. They cannot even answer the simple, practical question of how to warm milk for a newborn baby. That is why the International Criminal Court classified these actions as crimes against humanity and opened criminal proceedings against senior Russian officials.
I really don’t know how we will survive this winter. Perhaps solidarity will be the energy that keeps us warm through this cold winter.
I really don’t know how we will survive this winter. I only know that, based on our past experience, Ukrainians will help each other. So perhaps solidarity will be the energy that keeps us warm through this cold winter.
Ms. Matviichuk, our seventh and final question is more hypothetical: Would the world be a better place if political leaders and CEOs were exclusively – or at least predominantly – women?
Oleksandra Matviichuk: It has been statistically proven that when women participate equally in decision-making, for example in peace negotiations, the chances of achieving sustainable peace increase significantly.
Men talk only about natural resources, Russia’s territorial claims, geopolitical interests, and Putin’s version of Ukrainian history, but not about people.
This is why it is such a big problem that there are no women at the negotiation table when discussing Russia’s war of aggression against Ukraine. Perhaps this is why the men negotiating have completely lost the human dimension. They talk only about natural resources, Russia’s territorial claims, geopolitical interests, and Putin’s version of Ukrainian history, but not about people.
We are all human. I am human, so speak about humans. So we should start demanding the inclusion of more women in all decision-making processes!
But we are all people. We are all human. I am human, so speak about humans. So we should start demanding the inclusion of more women in all decision-making processes. We stand on two legs, men and women, so we should use both equally.
We must ensure the equal participation of women in all political processes!